Category Archives: Hadith science – Truth about “the peak of eloquence”

First time a Sunni website has been launched dedicated to analysing and exposing the authenticity of Nahjul-Balagha , which means “the peak of eloquence”.

With great pleasure we announce the official opening of , the first Sunni website dedicated analysing and exposing the authenticity of the famous book Nahjul-Balagha, called by many Shia the “sister of the Quran”. The website also contains other useful material such the authentic quotes of Ali bin abi Talib from Sunni sources etc.

Be sure to check out our Saheeh Nahjul-Balagha in a PDF format here:


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Majlisi: Authors of 400 Shia Usool are mostly unknown

The first Majlisi says in Rawdat-ul-Muttaqeen fi Sharh man la Yahduruhu al-Faqih, volume 1, chapter on the rulings of water, page 197:

فإنك إذا تتبعت كتب الرجال وجدت أكثر أصحاب الأصول الأربعمائة غير مذكور في شأنهم تعديل و لا جرح (إما) لأنه يكفي في مدحهم و توثيقهم أنهم أصحاب الأصول فإن أصحاب الإمام أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق عليه السلام المصنفين للكتب كانوا أربعة آلاف رجال … ( وإما ) لبعد العهد بين أرباب الرجال و بين أصحاب الأصول و غيرهم من أصحاب الكتب التي تزيد على ثمانين ألف كتاب كما يظهر من التتبع

“If you were to closely study the books on the biographies of narrators, you will discover that most of the authors of the four-hundred Usoul have not received any praise or disparagement; this is either because their reliability and praise were established based on them being from the authors of the Usoul (…) Or because of the long period of time that sets them apart from the scholars who specialize in the condition of narrators…”

So their main Usoul books, the fundamental books of Hadith (fabricated) by the Koufans, are mostly unreliable due to the anonymity of their authors.

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Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari: We can not prove birth of Shia Mahdi

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

Shia Ayatollah Sayyid Kamal al-Haydari: We can not prove birth of Shia Mahdi or 12th Imam using authentic Shia narrations/Hadiths.

Click here to read an interesting article about the birth and existence of Shia 12th Imam

 Posted by 13S2010

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Bilal ibn Rabah is Majhool/Uknown according to al-Khoei & other Shia scholars

Companion and Muazen of the Prophet (saw), Bilal ibn Rabah, is Majhool/Unknown according to al-Khoei & other Shia scholars.

There you go, a Shia fatwa by their scholar ‘Ali aal Muhssen “علي آل محسن” stating that the companion Bilal ibn Rabah (ra) is “Majhoul/Unknown” according to him:

السؤال :

 بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

سماحة الشيخ علي آل محسن حفظه الله تعالى،

ما هو حال بلال بن رباح عند الشيعة الإمامية أعزهم الله؟ لا نجد له ذكراً بعد وفاة النبي (ص) إلا عودته للمدينة من الشام و أذانه في حياة الزهراء عليها السلام. هل كانت له أدوار أخرى في أيام الإمام علي (ع) و غصبهم للخلافة؟ أو الإمام الحسن و الحسين (ع)؟

هل هناك اختلاف في حاله عند العلماء؟ و إن كان يوجد فما هو رأيكم أنتم؟

وفقكم الله لكل خير…


السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته، وبعد:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

اختلف علماؤنا الأعلام في تحقيق حال بلال بن رباح، فمنهم من وثقه، كالعلامة الحلي قدس سره، حيث ذكره في الثقات في القسم الأول من كتابه خلاصة الأقوال، ص 27، وكذا فعل ابن داود في رجاله، ص 58. والمامقاني في رجاله 1/183.

ومنهم من عده ممدوحا، كالمجلسي قدس سره في رجاله ص 170 وفي كتاب الوجيزة، ص 39. فتكون أحاديثه عنده من الحسان.

ومنهم من توقف فيه، فحكم بجهالة حاله، كالسيد الخوئي قدس سره في معجم رجال الحديث 3/364، وهذا هو القول الراجح عندي، والله العالم. والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته




Dear esteemed Sheikh ‘Ali aal Muhssen may Allah preserve you,


What is the condition of Bilal ibn Rabah according to the Imami Shia? we find no mention of him after the Prophet “S” passed away except his return to Madinah from al-Sham and that he performed the call to prayer during the life of al-Zahraa (as). Did he play a role during the Caliphate of Imam ‘Ali “‘a” and when they stripped him of the Caliphate? or Imam al-Hassan and al-Hussein “‘a”?


Is there a difference of opinion amongst the scholars and if so what is your stance?


May Allah guide you to all that is good.


al-Salamu Aleykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,


Bismillah al-Rahman al-Raheem,


Our top scholars have differed on the condition of Bilal bin Rabah, some consider him reliable/trustworthy like al-‘Allamah al-Helli may Allah sanctify his secret when he mentioned him amongst the Trustworthy (thiqat) in the first part of his book Khulasat al-Aqwal p27, and so did Ibn Dawood in his Rijal p58, and al-Mamaqani in his Rijal 1/183.


Some considered him as being praised like al-Majlisi may Allah sanctify his secret in his Rijal p170 and in the book al-Wajeezah p39, so his narrations would be graded as “Hasan” according to him.


And some of our scholars has ruled that his condition is unknown like al-Sayyed al-Khoei may Allah sanctify his secret in his book of Rijal 3/364, and I share his opinion on this matter, Allah knows best, wal Salamu Aleykum wa Rahmatullah.


– end –

Link to Fatwa:


By Hani (
Posted here by 13S2010


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Why Shia Hadiths shouldn’t be trusted & taken?

Why we shouldn’t take the narrations of Jafar al Sadik or any other Imam from the Books of the Twelver Shiites?

Salam Aleykum,

Since I never got an answer regarding the science of Hadith in the Madhab of Twelver Shiites I thought I’d share what I Know so that we can all Both Sunni and Shii Benefit from it while giving brief translations of the sayings of shii scholars:

According to the Shiite scholars, The Science of Hadith in the Madhab of The Twelvers has never existed nor was it implemented before the 900s Hijri.

The Big Scholar Al Ha’iri “الحائري” In His book Muktabas el Athar “مقتبس الأثر” part 3 page 73 says:
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In Defense of Sunni Hadith Sciences part 2

See part 1 here
By Farid (
Original Link 
Posted here By 13S2010


My apologies for the delay in posting this refutation. I have written most of this many months ago, but have completely forgotten about completing and posting it. I have brother Captain to thank for bringing it to my attention.
Those that do not have the time to go through this whole refutation should just scroll down to the bottom to the bolded and underlined hadiths to be both educated and entertained.

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Is Hadith al-Kisa (Cloak) authentic in Shia books?

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

Written by Farid
Original Article link
Posted here with some changes by 13S2010

Note: The letters in red are from the Shia.

Salam everyone, it has been a while since I have made a topic. I’ve been pretty busy lately, but I couldn’t help myself from posting about this topic.

One of the more intellectual brothers on SC, Ibn Al-Ja’abi, is attempting to respond to a challenge I made a while ago. It must have been ages ago, since I don’t really recall making this challenge, but it really sounds like something I would say, so I have no intention of disputing it. =p

Here is some background to the issue:

Shia Ibn Al-Ja’abi says:

And thirdly, the Nawasib have mocked us for not being able to find such oft-discussed incidents in our own books, such as Hadith Al-Thaqalayn, Hadith Al-Ghadeer, Hadith of the 12 Imams, This one, and others. Other narrations have been found in multitude by hard working brothers Al-Hamdu Lillah and exposed so the brainless Nawasib and Mukhalifeen can be shut up, Insha’Allah I will try a humble effort at finding narrations on or relating to Hadith Al-Kisa in Shi’a books, and when possible include the grading,

Indeed, there is little doubt that Shias really do believe Sunni narrations that are in their favor. This methodology is flawed. Nobody sees Sunnis taking in Shia narrations that are pro-Sunni as truth, unless if the narration has been established in our books first. Subjectively cherry-picking narrations has gotten so bad that as Shias have truly based aspects of their aqeedah on Sunni narrations (that have been misinterpreted).

Perhaps the most significant narration is the hadith of Samura of the their being twelve caliphs. We see this narration quoted by early twelvers hundreds of times in their ancient texts in order to establish their view that the Imams are twelve. This view, however, was not held by all Shias, since there were many that believed in five, seven, nine, or eleven Imams. They did not see the Sunni hadith is evidence and that view, from a Shi’ee perspective, is an objective one.

Thus, the challenge was made:

The popular (and deceptively charming) Sunni internet Rijalist, namely Farid (may Allah make his Progeny into Rawafidh) had challenged the Shi’as on the Nasibi internet forum of KFC (aka Haq Char Yar Islamic Forum) to prove “tashayyu is self sufficient, or is it not able to function without the existence of Sunnism” – to directly quote him, in that we need to prove from authentic Shi’a narrations khilafah of Imam Ali, and then the next challenge was to find a number of narrations often quoted from Sunni texts in Shi’a texts (I named a few of them above, but to repeat, Hadith Al-Ghadir, Hadith Thaqalayn, Hadith of 12 Imams, Hadith Al-Kisa (i.e. the hadith I will be attempting to prove is in our texts), and others).

I did find it amusing that Ibn Al-Ja’abi seems to have lost hope for me and is making dua’a for my progeny. Inshallah he will find it in his heart to extend that dua’a towards me as well.

Farid (may Allah make his Progeny into Rawafidh) also said not to use narrations connected to Imams, but only that which is connected to the Prophet (saww), due to the ‘isma (infallibility) of the Imams not being established.

We say: This was a devious trick used by him to make this challenge impossible, however, the infallibility of the Imams is established through a reliable narration connected back to the Prophet (saww) through a continuous chain, which we will quote here:

حدثنا علي بن عبد الله الوراق الرازي قال: حدثنا سعد بن – عبد الله قال: حدثنا الهيثم بن أبي مسروق النهدي، عن الحسين بن علوان، عن عمر ابن خالد، عن سعد بن طريف، عن الأصبغ بن نباته، عن عبد الله بن عباس قال: سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: أنا وعلي والحسن والحسين وتسعة من ولد الحسين مطهرون معصومون

Ali ibn Abdullah Al-Warraq Al-Razi narrated to us, he said: Sa’d ibn Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Al-Haytham ibn Abi Masrooq Al-Hindi narrated to us, he said: from Al-Hussain ibn Ulwan, from Umar ibn Khalid, from Sa’d ibn Turayf, from Al-Asbagh ibn Nubata, from Abdullah ibn Abbas, he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say: “I, and Ali, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain, and the Nine from the progeny of Al-Hussain, are pure and infallible.”

Kamal Al-Deen wa Tamam Al-Ni’ma volume 1 page 266 hadith 28

Shaykh Hadi Al-Najafi: The Narration’s Chain is Established (Mawsu’ah Ahadith Ahlul-Bayt volume 7 page 183)

The narration cannot be used to establish the infallibility of the Imams, for Ibn Al-Ja’abi would been to established the reliability of Ali bin Abdullah Al-Warraq, Sa’ad bin Turaif, Al-Asbagh bin Nabata, and Ibn Abbas. Each of these men have been criticized by Shia scholars as either weak or anonymous.

To be honest, one doesn’t even need to study the chain in order to arrive at the conclusion that this is a fabrication upon the tongue of Ibn Abbas, since Sunnis are the only real sustainers of his knowledge. His narrations in our books can be found in the thousands and include the most mild to the most controversial opinions. To suggest that this one reached a fourth century Qummi scholar and wasn’t documented by Sunni narrators is not reasonable.

Ibn Al-Ja’abi then went on to quote other narrations from the Imams in order to establish these merits from Shia books. First we start with Ayat Al-Tatheer/hadith Al-Kisa:

Translation (of the chain and the red highlighted portion): Ali ibn Ibrahim, from Muhammad ibn Isa, from Yunus, and Ali ibn Muhammad, from Sahl ibn Ziyad Abi Sa’id, from Muhammad ibn Isa, from Yunus, from Ibn Muskan, from Abi Basir, he said I asked Aba Abdillah Posted Image…..”Rather Allah (azza wa jall) narrated it to him in his true book to his Prophet (saww): ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you with a purification’ (33:33), so it (Ahlul-Bayt) was Ali, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain, and Fatima Posted Image, and The Messenger of Allah (saww) entered them into a cloak in the house of Umm Salamah, and then said: ‘Allahuma, verily to every Prophet there was a family and a weight (thaql), they are the People of my Household, and my gravity.’ So Umm Salamah said: ‘Am I not from your family?’ So he said: ‘Verily to you is goodness, but these are my family and my weights.'”

Kitab Al-Kafi volume 1 page 149 hadith 1 

Allama Majlisi: Authentic by its chain (Mir’at Al-Uqul volume 3 page 213)
Shaykh Marja Jawad Tabrizi: Sahih (Risalah Mukhtasarah Fi Al-Nusus Al-Sahiha Ala Imama Al-A’ima Al-Ithna Ashar page 12)

The narration comes from the path of Mohammad bin Eisa bin Yunus who has been weakened by several early Shia scholars and thus the narration is weak.

Muhammad ibn Yahya, from Muhammad ibn Al-Hussain, from Muhammad ibn Isma’il, from Mansur ibn Yunus, from Zayd ibn Al-Jahm Al-Hilali, from Abi Abdillah Posted Image, he said: “…..The evidence was established by the saying of the Prophet (saww) and by the Book which is read by the people, so he never stopped reciting the virtues of the People of His House in the words and shows them in the Qur’an, ‘Verily Allah only wishes to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification’……”

Al-Kafi volume 1 page 152 hadith 3

Zaid bin Al-Jahm is anonymous.

Muhammad ibn Yahya, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, from Ali ibn Al-Hakam, from Isma’il ibn Abdul-Khaliq, he said: I heard Aba Abdillah Posted Image saying to Abi ja’far Al-Ahwal, and I heard: “Have you been to Basra?” So he said: “Yes.” He said: “What did you see regarding the hastening of the people to this matter, and entering into it?” He said: “By Allah, verily they are few, they then did it, but even that was few.” So He said: “It is upon you [to approach] the youth, for verily they hurry to every good.” He then said: “What did the people of Basra say regarding this verse: ‘Say I ask no reward from you, except for the love of my Relations.’ (42:23)?” I said: “May I be made your ransome, verily they say this is for the relations of the Messenger of Allah (saww) (i.e. all of them)” So He said: “They lie, verily this was revealed for us especially, for the People of the House, for Ali, and Fatima, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain, [who are] the Companions of the Cloak.”

Al-Kafi volume 8 page 1971 hadith 66

Allama Majlisi: Sahih (Mir’at Al-Uqul volume 25 page 221)
Shaykh Hadi Al-Najafi: The Narration’s Chain is Authentic (Mawsu’ah Ahadith Ahlul-Bayt volume 7 page 289)

The chain is weak and the opinion of these scholars simply shows how incompetent they are in their hadith gradings. Ali bin Al-Hakam is a very late narrator and he did not narrator from the second century Imams. Isma’eel, on the other hand, died during the times of Ja’afar Al-Sadiq. The chain is easily disconnected but it is no surprise that Shia scholars did not notice this.

Ibn Al-Ja’abi then brought two more narrations about Kisa/Tatheer, but both narrations were weak. This is pretty obvious since he refrained from attempting to prove the authenticity of these chains. Furthermore, as usual, both narrations have anonymous narrators:

Narrations from Al-Khisal by Shaykh Al-Saduq:
First Narration:
أبي رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن الحسن المؤدب، عن أحمد ابن علي الاصبهاني، عن إبراهيم بن محمد الثقفي قال: أخبرنا مخول بن إبراهيم قال: حدثنا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني، عن عمار بن معاوية الدهني، عن عمرة بنت أفعي قالت: سمعت ام سلمة رضي الله عنها تقول: نزلت هذه الآية في بيتي ” إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا ” قالت: وفي البيت سبعة رسول الله وجبرئيل وميكائيل وعلي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين صلوات الله عليهم، قالت: وأنا على الباب فقلت: يارسول الله ألست من أهل البيت؟ قال: إنك من أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وآله. وما قال: إنك من أهل البيت
My Father (ra) he said: Abdullah ibn Al-Hasan Al-Mu’addab narrated to us, from Ahmad ibn Ali Al-Asbahani, from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad Al-Thaqafi, he said: Makhul ibn Ibrahim informed us, he said: Abdul-Jabbar ibn Al-Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Ammar ibn Mu’awiyya Al-Dahni, from Amrah bint Af’i, she said: I heard Umm Salamah (ra) say: “This verse was revealed in my house: ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification. (33:33)'” She said: “And in the house were seven, The Messenger of Allah, and Jibra’il, and Mika’il, and Ali, and Fatima, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain (sa).” She said: “And I was at the door. So I said: ‘Oh Messenger of Allah, am I not from the People of Your House?’ He said: ‘Verily you are from the Women of the Prophet (saww).’ And he never said ‘You are from the People of my House.'”
Kitab Al-Khisal volume 2 page 439-40
An interesting point in this narration is that it’s mentioned that 7 were present when this verse was revealed, whereas usually it’s only 5 or 6 (in the addition of Jibra’il), even Shaykh Saduq (ra) notes this when he says regarding this Hadith:
قال مصنف هذا الكتاب رضي الله عنه: هذا حديث غريب لا أعرفه إلا بهذا الطريق والمعروف أن أهل البيت الذين نزلت فيهم آية التطهير خمسة وسادسهم جبرئيل عليه السلام
The Compiler of this book (ra) said: “This narration is estranged, I do not know it except by this transmittion, and it is known that the People of the House for whom this verse of purification was revealed regarding were five, and the sixth from them was Jibra’il (as)
Second Narration:
This next narration is extremely long so I will post and translate the chain and the part which is necessary.
حدثنا أبي، ومحمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي الله عنهما قالا: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، عن الحكم بن – مسكين الثقفي، عن أبي الجارود وهشام أبي ساسان، وأبي طارق السراج، عن عامر بن واثلة قال: كنت في البيت يوم الشورى فسمعت عليا عليه السلام وهو يقول:…..نشدتكم بالله هل فيكم أحد أنزل الله فيه آية التطهير على رسوله صلى الله عليه وآله ” إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا ” فأخذ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله كساء خيبريا فضمني فيه وفاطمة عليها السلام والحسن والحسين ثم قال: ” يا رب هؤلاء أهل بيتي فأذهب عنهم الرجس وطهرهم تطهيرا “؟ قالوا: اللهم لا
My Father, and Muhammad ibn Al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn Al-Waleed (ra) narrated to us, they said: Sa’d ibn Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Muhammad ibn Al-Hussain ibn Abi Al-Khattab narrated to us: From Al-Hakam ibn Maskeen Al-Thaqafi, from Abi Al-Jaarood and Hisham ibn Abi Sasan, from Abi Tariq Al-Siraj, from Amir ibn Wathila, he said: I was in the house on the day of the Shura, and I heard Ali (as) and he was saying: “…..I implore you by Allah, is there one among you, for who Allah revealed the verse of purification upon the Messenger of Allah (saww): ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification. (33:33)’ So the Messenger of Allah (saww) took the cloak of khaybar, and pushed me into it, and Fatima (as) and Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain, then he said: ‘Oh Lord, these are the People of my House, so remove from them uncleanliness, and purify them through a purification.’?” They said: “Allahuma, no.”
Al-Khisal volume 2 page 612

This is the day of the Shura, after the death of Umar ibn Al-Khattab.


The Shia quoted another narration:

I apologize for updating this so long as I’m preoccupied with other things as well, however Insha’Allah I plan on updating my research more this week. I also wanted to add in a narration I skipped over when I was doing Al-Khisal:
 حدثنا أحمد بن الحسن القطان، ومحمد بن أحمد السناني، وعلي بن – موسى الدقاق، والحسين بن إبراهيم بن أحمد بن هشام المكتب ، وعلي بن عبد الله الوراق رضي الله عنهم قالوا: حدثنا أبو العباس أحمد بن يحيى بن زكريا القطان قال: حدثنا بكر بن عبد الله بن حبيب قال: حدثنا تميم بن بهلول: قال: حدثنا سليمان بن حكيم، عن ثور بن يزيد، عن مكحول قال: قال أمير المؤمنين علي بن – أبي طالب عليه السلام:……وأما السبعون فإن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نام ونومني وزوجتي فاطمة وابني الحسن والحسين وألقى علينا عباءة قطوانية فأنزل الله تبارك وتعالى فينا ” إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا ” وقال جبرئيل عليه السلام: أنا منكم يا محمد، فكان سادسنا جبرئيل عليه السلام
Ahmad ibn Al-Hasan Al-Qattan narrated to us, and Muhammad ibn Ahmad Al-Sinani, and Ahmad Al-Sinani, and Ali ibn Musa Al-Daqqaq, and Al-Hussain ibn Ibrahim ibn Ahmad ibn Hisham Al-Mukattab, and Ali ibn Abdullah Al-Warraq (may Allah be pleased with them), they said: Abu Al-Abbas Ahmad ibn Yahya ibn Zakariyya Al-Qattan narrated to us, he said: Bakr ibn Abdullah ibn Habeeb narrated to us, he said: Tamim ibn Bahlool narrated to us, he said: Sulayman ibn Hakeem narrated to us, from Thawr ibn Yazid, from Makhool, he said: Amir Al-Mu’minin Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) said: “…..And as for the seventieth, verily The Messenger of Allah (saww) lay down, and he made me lay down, and my wife Fatima, and ym sons Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain, and threw upon us a Qatwani cloak, and Allah (tabarak wa ta’ali) revealed regarding us: ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification. (33:33)’. And Jibra’il (as) said: ‘I am from you, Oh Muhammad.’ So Jibra’il (as) was the sixth of us.”
Al-Khisal volume 2 page 637
Notes: The word “Naama” means “he slept”, and the word “Nawwamani” means “he made me sleep”, but I found it more appropriate to translate them as “He lay down”, and “He made me lay down” in this context.

The narration is weak due to majhool narrators like Tameem bin Bahlool. I am also pretty sure that Thawr bin Yazeed and Makhool are not thiqaat since they are not Shia narrators in the first place.

Also, Ibn Al-Ja’abi suggested that my weakening of the narrations that he provided are based on my standards. This is false. Every rule that I use to weaken a hadith is based on one that is championed by Shia hadith scholars like Al-Khoei, Al-Subhani, and Al-Mohseni.

Ibn Al-Ja’abi then said:

Insha’Allah when I update my thread next, I will also post my reply to Farid, however, as I’ve said before I don’t engage in tit for tat polemics and won’t make my research thread into a debate one. In addition, before I continue anything else, I’ll ask Farid to read the title of my thread because he seems to misunderstand its purpose, it reads “A Collection Of Hadith Al-Kisa In Shia Books”, not “A Collection Of Mu’tabar Versions Of Hadith Al-Kisa In Shia Books”. I hope it’s understood that when I don’t post the grading of a narration, I’m not claiming that it is Mu’tabar or I haven’t attempted to try to see if it is.

 And just a point to you, clearly Shi’as had access to these narrations in our own books, the question now is do reliable ones exist with us, and the answer is yes.

 Also, a joke is only funny so many times

It seems like Ibn Al-Ja’abi has shifted to a much more lenient approach to collecting the narrations, since his original intention was to collect the authentic narrations on the subject. This is obvious since the very reason he created the thread was to respond to my challenge that these narrations do not exist through authentic chains. I never argued that these didn’t exist at all (through weak chains) in Shia books.

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Status of narrators from Ahlulbayt between Shia & Sunni scholars

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

By Farid
Original Article link
Posted & added more info by 13S2010 (i.e. blue text)

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem,

The following is a list of narrators that are considered to be from Ahlul Bayt according to Shia standards. I don’t need to spell it out because anyone who reads this can make their observations themselves.

I chose to keep things simple by quoting the judgements Ibn Hajar in Al-Taqreeb (Dar Ibn Hazm – First Edition) and Al-Jawahiri in Al-Mufeed min Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith (Mu’sasat Al-Tareekh Al-Arabi – First Edition) because they generally included final judgements on narrators based on the opinions of early scholars. Furthermore, even though none of the two are perfect, they are considered reliable references when it comes to determining the general status of narrators.

Meaning of terminologies used in the table:

Thiqa = Reliable/Trustworthy (This is the highest form of praise for a narrator’s quality in Hadith.)
Saduq = Trustworthy
Fadhel = Virtuous 
Jaleel = Dignified
Majhool = Anonymous 
…other terms are already written in English


Note: Some of the tawtheeqaat by Al-Jawahiri are relied upon the views of Al-Mufeed in Al-Irshad. However, some Shia scholars consider this book a history book and don’t consider his comments regarding rijal as final due to his leniency in this book.

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A look at the narrations of companions used against the superiority of Abu Bakr and Umar [Sticky]

Note: We will keep updating this post to add more refutations.  
Written by Muhammad Moin
Original Article here
Posted here by 13S2010

A look at evidences provided against the superiority of Abu Bakr and Umar among companions


Among their claim is:

1. Sahaba disagreed over Tafzil among companions.
2. All of Banu Hashim preferred Ali (ra) over Shaykhain (ra).
3. This is an issue based on speculation and hence the a person holding different opinion is not going away from Sunnah.

And other related issues. I’ll start it soon.

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Accuracy in judging narrators – Sunnah vs Shia

al-Salamu `Aleykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuhu,

The reliability or should I say quality of the narrator, reflects the quality and reliability of the report. The Muslims take their religion and their beliefs from the various books of Hadith which they deem reliable and popular and authoritative, these books contain many reports, some reports contradict other reports, some are un-Islamic beliefs, some are fabrications and lies, some are authentic and correct, others correct in meaning but not accurate in text and so on and so forth…

The most reliable of texts reaches us through the most correct of chains in the utmost of accuracy. The text that reaches us through the clearest and purest chain is more worthy of being followed than the other texts.

We take the example of three narrations that we made up, so we can better explain this:

Narration #1:
`Amr (Great reliable scholar) from Zayd (Firm reliable and popular) from Qays (Reliable):
“The Muslims defeated the Persians after three days, then chanted: Truly victory is only from Allah.”

Narration #2:
Wahb (Trusted) from `Ali (Honest makes mistakes) from Qays (Reliable):
“The Muslims chanted: Victory comes from Allah, After they defeated the Persians on the second day.”

Narration #3:
Sa`eed (Trusted with bad memory) from Sahl (Reliable Mudallis) from `Umar (Acceptable):
“The Muslims defeated the Persians after three weeks of brutal fighting then chanted: Ya `Ali Madad.”

Judging the Narrators and Narrations:

#1 All three narrators are reliable, meaning “Thiqah” which is the highest form of praise for a narrator’s quality in Hadith. The text of this narration is of the utmost in reliability.

#2 Wahb is Saduq, meaning trustworthy but does not excel in the art of narrating, `Ali is honest so he wouldn’t lie but he makes mistakes in narrating, the third narrator is Qays, the same man in the first narration and he is Thiqah reliable. The text of this narration is good, it is “Hasan”, and the only difference between it and the first is the number of days, the first narration gets priority as it is more reliable.

#3 Sa`eed is trusted but has bad memory, this can affect his texts. Sahl is reliable in and of himself but may make Tadlees, meaning he may not have actually heard this narration from `Umar. `Umar as a narrator is barely acceptable, he doesn’t lie, but he isn’t reliable either. The text of the narration appears completely different, the period of 2-3 days is suddenly stretched to two weeks! and the Du`a or chant at the end is Munkar, it opposes the others and opposes Islamic creed, this text is completely un-acceptable although none of the narrators are “liars” or “unknown” or even “weak”.

This is a very small and primitive example to show how the quality of narrators is reflected on the quality of texts, how judging each narrator’s reliability and firmness in Hadith is key when comparing different religious and historical reports to reach the final conclusion as to what exactly happened in the event we research.

This science is applied by Ahlul-Sunnah with excellence as they perfected it, it is used to better understand the narrations and to extract the authentic religious rulings and historical information after filtering out all the lies, the mistakes, the fabrications, the exaggerations and the inaccuracies which distort the texts.

The Shia on the other hand by trying to mimic Ahlul-Sunnah, they tried to do the same. However, due to their negligence and ignorance and extremism, they avoided these sciences and believed in whatever they wished, and now when faced with the criticism of the opponents, they try to shovel the calamities they recorded in their books, they try to bury the mistakes and reconcile the contradictions while failing to explain many of the major conflicts in their `Aqeedah. Success was not on their side and Success is only from Allah.

There are plenty of ways to illustrate this deficiency in the Shia Madhab and prove academically the success and great victory for Ahlul-Sunnah. I’ve read more than one study on this subject by Arab students of knowledge, each more informative than the other, each illustrating with clear evidence the weakness of the Shia sources, we even started a draft for a similar study comparing the main Hadithi sources the Shia Kafi vs the Sunni Bukhari, but we have no yet published it in its entirety. This day, I chose another way to do it, a way that I expect to be InshaAllah easy to accomplish but strong in its conclusions.

The plan is to show how Ahlul-Sunnah took great care when it came to judging their narrators and recording everything to do with their ability to narrate as opposed to the Shia who either give the man a thumbs up or a thumbs down.

In the science of Ahlul-Sunnah, a narrator could be weak in a way that his narrations are abandoned altogether, he could be weak but his narrations are written, he could be slightly weak but strengthened with follow-ups or Mutaba`at, he could be trustworthy but with a bad memory, or reliable but got confused at the end of his life, and we are able to distinguish who heard from him before or after his confusion, a narrator could be reliable when narrating from some men but weak when narrating from others, a narrator could be reliable when narrating from his own books but weak after he lost his books when narrating from memory, a narrator could be reliable and he could have lived in the time of another reliable narrator but we know that they never met so their narration from each-other is weak, a narrator could be reliable but attributes narrations to those whom he never met, a narrator could be an innovator so whatever he exclusively narrates to support his innovation is rejected, a narrator could be honest but not very reliable in narration, a narrator could be trustworthy but makes mistakes every now and then, a narrator could be knowledgeable about the narrations and narrators of Kufa more than those of al-Sham, a narrator could have lived in the time of another but was too young to narrate from him without a middle man, a narrator could be a liar or one who is accused of lies or fabrication and so on and so forth…

In the science of the Imamiyyah, we observe that there is no attention whatsoever to all the above, the case is usually that either they consider a man Thiqah (reliable) or Majhoul (unknown), it’s as if they just have a stamp and they stamp it on the forehead of every man like robots. The dates of birth and death are not recorded for the vast majority of their narrators which is problematic for the connectivity of the narrators, there is no information on who a man’s teachers are, any narrator can attribute anything to any other man. In fact the huge number of unknown narrators makes it obvious that unlike Ahlul-Sunnah, the Imamiyyah took their narrations from random Koufans and Qummies, most of which aren’t Imams or scholars or Huffaz, just grocers and blacksmiths and merchants and other individuals from that society. Another issue is that they invented rules to make Tawtheeq or authenticate unknown individuals, such as authenticating anyone al-Saduq praised or anyone in the chains of Tafseer al-Qummi and so on and so forth…

So how can we quickly compare? The books of Rijal are huge and complicated, especially those of Ahlul-Sunnah?

The answer is simple, pick a reliable book from each school that summarizes the matter.

1- Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah:

Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalani al-Shafi`i has a good small Rijali summary called Taqreeb al-Tahdheeb, in this book he mainly sums up the condition of the narrators of al-Imam al-Mezzi’s book Tahdheeb al-Kamal. al-Mezzi’s book contains the names of all the narrators from the six Sunni main books plus a lot of others that al-Mezzi decided to include as well, sadly it doesn’t contain the names of many other Sunni narrators.

2- Imamiyyah Ithna `Ashariyyah:

Shaykh al-Jawahiri wrote a summary called al-Mufeed min Mu`jam Rijal al-Hadith, this book sums up the opinions of al-Khu’i in his Mu`jam Rijal al-Hadith. al-Khu’i wrote his encyclopedia to collect all the Shia narrators and document what the early Shia Rijalists said concerning each man.

Method of this comparative study:

The two books we mentioned, although they’re summaries, yet they’re still quite big and going through each book from beginning to end is very time consuming. I thought of the easiest and quickest way to reach the results without sacrificing much in the accuracy of the study and without ending up with a big error margin as that would be a waste of my time.

What I decided in the end, was to use the computer and the software as this would make the search automated and thus much quicker. How would I do this? Well as the readers know, each of the authors lists a number, then lists the name of the narrator, and next to this he states whether the man was Thiqah or Hasan-ul-Hadith or Da`eef or Majhoul etc… So I would write the word “Thiqah” in the search engine and it would give me the number of times the author ruled on the Wathaqah of a narrator. Now you ask, well this isn’t very accurate, we know for example that the Shia usually praise some of their narrators by saying “Thiqah Thiqah”, this would be counted twice for one single man! I say, this is true, the goal was never to be 100% accurate, I believe the difference will be so huge between both, and the result will be so clear, that such small exceptional cases would not affect the study, the error margin wouldn’t be more than 3 to 6% per-my estimation, the proof is that those described as “Thiqah Thiqah” in al-Mufeed are only about 43 individuals out of around 15,678 narrators in the book, hardly 0.2%.

The Sunni book is going to be much much harder, since there are many more terms, the author does not work in binary of Thiqah or Majhoul, so it’s tricky and I need to place much more of an effort to write its resulsts.

With this said, InshaAllah and Bismillah we begin,

The Results:

NOTE: These are all not 100% accurate, so keep this in mind since I don’t want to keep repeating “around this or that much” I’ll abbreviate it with Tilde “~”.

1- The Sunni book of Rijal, al-Taqreeb li-ibn Hajar:

Published by Dar al-Rasheed, Syria.
Total number of Rijal: Around 8,826 men.

There are many terms used to described narrators in the science of Ahlul-Sunnah, the matter isn’t restricted to Thiqah vs Majhoul like the Shia book, so I’ll just select a few common ones.

Thiqah Thabt (ثقة ثبت) are ~ 137
Thiqah (ثقة) are ~ 2,304
Saduq (صدوق) are ~ 1,833
Maqboul (مقبول) are ~ 1,522
Layyin (لين) are ~ 211
Da`eef (ضعيف) are ~ 423
Matrouk (متروك) are ~ 145
Mastour (مستور) are ~ 157
La Yu`raf (لا يعرف) are ~ 75
Majhoul (مجهول) are ~ 785

There are many other terms which we did not write such as Thiqah Mutqin or Laysa bil-Qawi or Lahu Awham or Katheer al-Khata’ etc… but these are enough to give us a clear image of what the situation is. Obviously the terms of praise range from Sahabi or Lahu Suhbah, to Imam Hafiz or Thiqah Jaleel, or Thabt and these indicate the highest forms of reliability, followed by Thiqah and it is for the reliable narrator, then Saduq or Hasan or Salih al-Hadith for the trusted narrators who aren’t renowned reliable Muhadditheen. Then terms of weakness such as “Maqboul” and he is the one whose narrations are barely acceptable, and the “Layyin” whose weakness isn’t much, and Shadeed al-Du`f or Munkar al-Hadith or Matrouk for those of extreme weakness, then after that come terms such as the “Mouttahameen” those accused of fabricating, then the Kazzab and Wadda` for fabricators and liars, and then the Mastour and Majhoul and La Yu`raf for those whose identities are not known or those whose condition is not known and so on…

Based on the simplified list above, we see that the matter isn’t as black and white as we find in the Shia books, the author seems to have accurately placed each man in his rightful position, we find the weakness of narrators classed into several levels and so is their strength, making the process of grading Hadith deeper and richer.

2- The Shia book of Rijal, al-Mufeed lil-Jawahiri:

Published by Mahillati, Iran.
Total number of Rijal: Around 14,194 men. (After subtracting the term: Muttahid Ma` to reduce repetition)

Thiqatun-Thiqah (ثقة ثقة) are ~ 40.
Thiqah-`Ayn (ثقة عين) are ~ 43.
Thiqah (ثقة) are ~ 1,346.
Saduq (صدوق) are ~ 12.
Da`eef (ضعيف) are ~ 234.
Majhoul (مجهول) are ~ 8,054.
Majhoulah (مجهولة) are ~ 87.

The number of the above does not reach the total because many narrators were not judged, the author says that so and so met the Mahdi or was praised by so and so, but they don’t have a clear ruling on them, in this case they’d be Majaheel (unknowns), and many others are simply repetitions of the same person. There are also some other terms such as “Mamdouh” (praised) and Madhmoum (criticized) and Mal`oun (cursed) which are small in number so no use collecting them.

As the reader can see, there is a great unbalance taking place here, the vast majority are either Majhoul or Thiqah. Thiqatun Thiqah is the strongest praise but is very rare. Thiqah and Thiqah `Ayn are technically the same thing. Saduq or trustworthy is the rarest which exposes a deep problem in how they judge narrators and their Dhabt. There are a few weak narrators, but stumbling upon one would be unlikely. The Majaheel whether male or female are abundant, they make up the vast majority. There are about thirty or so narrators that are “praised” which is another form of Majhoul, another thirty or forty are criticized by the Imams or cursed.

– end –

Give me your comments please, especially those who are into Hadith sciences.

Written by Hani
Posted by 13S2010
Original article


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