Category Archives: Hadith science

Nahjul-Balagha.net – Truth about “the peak of eloquence”


First time a Sunni website has been launched dedicated to analysing and exposing the authenticity of Nahjul-Balagha , which means “the peak of eloquence”.

With great pleasure we announce the official opening of http://Nahjul-Balagha.net , the first Sunni website dedicated analysing and exposing the authenticity of the famous book Nahjul-Balagha, called by many Shia the “sister of the Quran”. The website also contains other useful material such the authentic quotes of Ali bin abi Talib from Sunni sources etc.

Be sure to check out our Saheeh Nahjul-Balagha in a PDF format here:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/english-pdf/

 

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Majlisi: Authors of 400 Shia Usool are mostly unknown


The first Majlisi says in Rawdat-ul-Muttaqeen fi Sharh man la Yahduruhu al-Faqih, volume 1, chapter on the rulings of water, page 197:

فإنك إذا تتبعت كتب الرجال وجدت أكثر أصحاب الأصول الأربعمائة غير مذكور في شأنهم تعديل و لا جرح (إما) لأنه يكفي في مدحهم و توثيقهم أنهم أصحاب الأصول فإن أصحاب الإمام أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق عليه السلام المصنفين للكتب كانوا أربعة آلاف رجال … ( وإما ) لبعد العهد بين أرباب الرجال و بين أصحاب الأصول و غيرهم من أصحاب الكتب التي تزيد على ثمانين ألف كتاب كما يظهر من التتبع

“If you were to closely study the books on the biographies of narrators, you will discover that most of the authors of the four-hundred Usoul have not received any praise or disparagement; this is either because their reliability and praise were established based on them being from the authors of the Usoul (…) Or because of the long period of time that sets them apart from the scholars who specialize in the condition of narrators…”

So their main Usoul books, the fundamental books of Hadith (fabricated) by the Koufans, are mostly unreliable due to the anonymity of their authors.

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Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari: We can not prove birth of Shia Mahdi


بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

Shia Ayatollah Sayyid Kamal al-Haydari: We can not prove birth of Shia Mahdi or 12th Imam using authentic Shia narrations/Hadiths.

Click here to read an interesting article about the birth and existence of Shia 12th Imam

 Posted by 13S2010

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Bilal ibn Rabah is Majhool/Uknown according to al-Khoei & other Shia scholars


Companion and Muazen of the Prophet (saw), Bilal ibn Rabah, is Majhool/Unknown according to al-Khoei & other Shia scholars.

There you go, a Shia fatwa by their scholar ‘Ali aal Muhssen “علي آل محسن” stating that the companion Bilal ibn Rabah (ra) is “Majhoul/Unknown” according to him:

السؤال :

 بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

سماحة الشيخ علي آل محسن حفظه الله تعالى،

ما هو حال بلال بن رباح عند الشيعة الإمامية أعزهم الله؟ لا نجد له ذكراً بعد وفاة النبي (ص) إلا عودته للمدينة من الشام و أذانه في حياة الزهراء عليها السلام. هل كانت له أدوار أخرى في أيام الإمام علي (ع) و غصبهم للخلافة؟ أو الإمام الحسن و الحسين (ع)؟

هل هناك اختلاف في حاله عند العلماء؟ و إن كان يوجد فما هو رأيكم أنتم؟

وفقكم الله لكل خير…

الجواب:

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته، وبعد:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

اختلف علماؤنا الأعلام في تحقيق حال بلال بن رباح، فمنهم من وثقه، كالعلامة الحلي قدس سره، حيث ذكره في الثقات في القسم الأول من كتابه خلاصة الأقوال، ص 27، وكذا فعل ابن داود في رجاله، ص 58. والمامقاني في رجاله 1/183.

ومنهم من عده ممدوحا، كالمجلسي قدس سره في رجاله ص 170 وفي كتاب الوجيزة، ص 39. فتكون أحاديثه عنده من الحسان.

ومنهم من توقف فيه، فحكم بجهالة حاله، كالسيد الخوئي قدس سره في معجم رجال الحديث 3/364، وهذا هو القول الراجح عندي، والله العالم. والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Question:

Bismillah,

 

Dear esteemed Sheikh ‘Ali aal Muhssen may Allah preserve you,

 

What is the condition of Bilal ibn Rabah according to the Imami Shia? we find no mention of him after the Prophet “S” passed away except his return to Madinah from al-Sham and that he performed the call to prayer during the life of al-Zahraa (as). Did he play a role during the Caliphate of Imam ‘Ali “‘a” and when they stripped him of the Caliphate? or Imam al-Hassan and al-Hussein “‘a”?

 

Is there a difference of opinion amongst the scholars and if so what is your stance?

 

May Allah guide you to all that is good.

Answer:

al-Salamu Aleykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

 

Bismillah al-Rahman al-Raheem,

 

Our top scholars have differed on the condition of Bilal bin Rabah, some consider him reliable/trustworthy like al-‘Allamah al-Helli may Allah sanctify his secret when he mentioned him amongst the Trustworthy (thiqat) in the first part of his book Khulasat al-Aqwal p27, and so did Ibn Dawood in his Rijal p58, and al-Mamaqani in his Rijal 1/183.

 

Some considered him as being praised like al-Majlisi may Allah sanctify his secret in his Rijal p170 and in the book al-Wajeezah p39, so his narrations would be graded as “Hasan” according to him.

 

And some of our scholars has ruled that his condition is unknown like al-Sayyed al-Khoei may Allah sanctify his secret in his book of Rijal 3/364, and I share his opinion on this matter, Allah knows best, wal Salamu Aleykum wa Rahmatullah.

 

– end –

Link to Fatwa:

http://www.ansarweb.net/artman2/publish/85/article_2461.php

bilal_uknown

By Hani (Islamic-Forum.net)
Posted here by 13S2010

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Why Shia Hadiths shouldn’t be trusted & taken?


Why we shouldn’t take the narrations of Jafar al Sadik or any other Imam from the Books of the Twelver Shiites?

Salam Aleykum,

Since I never got an answer regarding the science of Hadith in the Madhab of Twelver Shiites I thought I’d share what I Know so that we can all Both Sunni and Shii Benefit from it while giving brief translations of the sayings of shii scholars:

According to the Shiite scholars, The Science of Hadith in the Madhab of The Twelvers has never existed nor was it implemented before the 900s Hijri.

The Big Scholar Al Ha’iri “الحائري” In His book Muktabas el Athar “مقتبس الأثر” part 3 page 73 says:
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In Defense of Sunni Hadith Sciences part 2


See part 1 here
By Farid (islamic-forum.net)
Original Link 
Posted here By 13S2010

Update:

My apologies for the delay in posting this refutation. I have written most of this many months ago, but have completely forgotten about completing and posting it. I have brother Captain to thank for bringing it to my attention.
Those that do not have the time to go through this whole refutation should just scroll down to the bottom to the bolded and underlined hadiths to be both educated and entertained.

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Is Hadith al-Kisa (Cloak) authentic in Shia books?


بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

Written by Farid
Original Article link
Posted here with some changes by 13S2010

Note: The letters in red are from the Shia.

Salam everyone, it has been a while since I have made a topic. I’ve been pretty busy lately, but I couldn’t help myself from posting about this topic.

One of the more intellectual brothers on SC, Ibn Al-Ja’abi, is attempting to respond to a challenge I made a while ago. It must have been ages ago, since I don’t really recall making this challenge, but it really sounds like something I would say, so I have no intention of disputing it. =p

Here is some background to the issue:

Shia Ibn Al-Ja’abi says:

And thirdly, the Nawasib have mocked us for not being able to find such oft-discussed incidents in our own books, such as Hadith Al-Thaqalayn, Hadith Al-Ghadeer, Hadith of the 12 Imams, This one, and others. Other narrations have been found in multitude by hard working brothers Al-Hamdu Lillah and exposed so the brainless Nawasib and Mukhalifeen can be shut up, Insha’Allah I will try a humble effort at finding narrations on or relating to Hadith Al-Kisa in Shi’a books, and when possible include the grading,

Indeed, there is little doubt that Shias really do believe Sunni narrations that are in their favor. This methodology is flawed. Nobody sees Sunnis taking in Shia narrations that are pro-Sunni as truth, unless if the narration has been established in our books first. Subjectively cherry-picking narrations has gotten so bad that as Shias have truly based aspects of their aqeedah on Sunni narrations (that have been misinterpreted).

Perhaps the most significant narration is the hadith of Samura of the their being twelve caliphs. We see this narration quoted by early twelvers hundreds of times in their ancient texts in order to establish their view that the Imams are twelve. This view, however, was not held by all Shias, since there were many that believed in five, seven, nine, or eleven Imams. They did not see the Sunni hadith is evidence and that view, from a Shi’ee perspective, is an objective one.

Thus, the challenge was made:

The popular (and deceptively charming) Sunni internet Rijalist, namely Farid (may Allah make his Progeny into Rawafidh) had challenged the Shi’as on the Nasibi internet forum of KFC (aka Haq Char Yar Islamic Forum) to prove “tashayyu is self sufficient, or is it not able to function without the existence of Sunnism” – to directly quote him, in that we need to prove from authentic Shi’a narrations khilafah of Imam Ali, and then the next challenge was to find a number of narrations often quoted from Sunni texts in Shi’a texts (I named a few of them above, but to repeat, Hadith Al-Ghadir, Hadith Thaqalayn, Hadith of 12 Imams, Hadith Al-Kisa (i.e. the hadith I will be attempting to prove is in our texts), and others).

I did find it amusing that Ibn Al-Ja’abi seems to have lost hope for me and is making dua’a for my progeny. Inshallah he will find it in his heart to extend that dua’a towards me as well.

Farid (may Allah make his Progeny into Rawafidh) also said not to use narrations connected to Imams, but only that which is connected to the Prophet (saww), due to the ‘isma (infallibility) of the Imams not being established.

We say: This was a devious trick used by him to make this challenge impossible, however, the infallibility of the Imams is established through a reliable narration connected back to the Prophet (saww) through a continuous chain, which we will quote here:

حدثنا علي بن عبد الله الوراق الرازي قال: حدثنا سعد بن – عبد الله قال: حدثنا الهيثم بن أبي مسروق النهدي، عن الحسين بن علوان، عن عمر ابن خالد، عن سعد بن طريف، عن الأصبغ بن نباته، عن عبد الله بن عباس قال: سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: أنا وعلي والحسن والحسين وتسعة من ولد الحسين مطهرون معصومون

Ali ibn Abdullah Al-Warraq Al-Razi narrated to us, he said: Sa’d ibn Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Al-Haytham ibn Abi Masrooq Al-Hindi narrated to us, he said: from Al-Hussain ibn Ulwan, from Umar ibn Khalid, from Sa’d ibn Turayf, from Al-Asbagh ibn Nubata, from Abdullah ibn Abbas, he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say: “I, and Ali, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain, and the Nine from the progeny of Al-Hussain, are pure and infallible.”

Kamal Al-Deen wa Tamam Al-Ni’ma volume 1 page 266 hadith 28

Shaykh Hadi Al-Najafi: The Narration’s Chain is Established (Mawsu’ah Ahadith Ahlul-Bayt volume 7 page 183)

The narration cannot be used to establish the infallibility of the Imams, for Ibn Al-Ja’abi would been to established the reliability of Ali bin Abdullah Al-Warraq, Sa’ad bin Turaif, Al-Asbagh bin Nabata, and Ibn Abbas. Each of these men have been criticized by Shia scholars as either weak or anonymous.

To be honest, one doesn’t even need to study the chain in order to arrive at the conclusion that this is a fabrication upon the tongue of Ibn Abbas, since Sunnis are the only real sustainers of his knowledge. His narrations in our books can be found in the thousands and include the most mild to the most controversial opinions. To suggest that this one reached a fourth century Qummi scholar and wasn’t documented by Sunni narrators is not reasonable.

Ibn Al-Ja’abi then went on to quote other narrations from the Imams in order to establish these merits from Shia books. First we start with Ayat Al-Tatheer/hadith Al-Kisa:

Translation (of the chain and the red highlighted portion): Ali ibn Ibrahim, from Muhammad ibn Isa, from Yunus, and Ali ibn Muhammad, from Sahl ibn Ziyad Abi Sa’id, from Muhammad ibn Isa, from Yunus, from Ibn Muskan, from Abi Basir, he said I asked Aba Abdillah Posted Image…..”Rather Allah (azza wa jall) narrated it to him in his true book to his Prophet (saww): ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you with a purification’ (33:33), so it (Ahlul-Bayt) was Ali, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain, and Fatima Posted Image, and The Messenger of Allah (saww) entered them into a cloak in the house of Umm Salamah, and then said: ‘Allahuma, verily to every Prophet there was a family and a weight (thaql), they are the People of my Household, and my gravity.’ So Umm Salamah said: ‘Am I not from your family?’ So he said: ‘Verily to you is goodness, but these are my family and my weights.'”

Kitab Al-Kafi volume 1 page 149 hadith 1 

Allama Majlisi: Authentic by its chain (Mir’at Al-Uqul volume 3 page 213)
Shaykh Marja Jawad Tabrizi: Sahih (Risalah Mukhtasarah Fi Al-Nusus Al-Sahiha Ala Imama Al-A’ima Al-Ithna Ashar page 12)

The narration comes from the path of Mohammad bin Eisa bin Yunus who has been weakened by several early Shia scholars and thus the narration is weak.

Muhammad ibn Yahya, from Muhammad ibn Al-Hussain, from Muhammad ibn Isma’il, from Mansur ibn Yunus, from Zayd ibn Al-Jahm Al-Hilali, from Abi Abdillah Posted Image, he said: “…..The evidence was established by the saying of the Prophet (saww) and by the Book which is read by the people, so he never stopped reciting the virtues of the People of His House in the words and shows them in the Qur’an, ‘Verily Allah only wishes to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification’……”

Al-Kafi volume 1 page 152 hadith 3

Zaid bin Al-Jahm is anonymous.

Muhammad ibn Yahya, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, from Ali ibn Al-Hakam, from Isma’il ibn Abdul-Khaliq, he said: I heard Aba Abdillah Posted Image saying to Abi ja’far Al-Ahwal, and I heard: “Have you been to Basra?” So he said: “Yes.” He said: “What did you see regarding the hastening of the people to this matter, and entering into it?” He said: “By Allah, verily they are few, they then did it, but even that was few.” So He said: “It is upon you [to approach] the youth, for verily they hurry to every good.” He then said: “What did the people of Basra say regarding this verse: ‘Say I ask no reward from you, except for the love of my Relations.’ (42:23)?” I said: “May I be made your ransome, verily they say this is for the relations of the Messenger of Allah (saww) (i.e. all of them)” So He said: “They lie, verily this was revealed for us especially, for the People of the House, for Ali, and Fatima, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain, [who are] the Companions of the Cloak.”

Al-Kafi volume 8 page 1971 hadith 66

Allama Majlisi: Sahih (Mir’at Al-Uqul volume 25 page 221)
Shaykh Hadi Al-Najafi: The Narration’s Chain is Authentic (Mawsu’ah Ahadith Ahlul-Bayt volume 7 page 289)

The chain is weak and the opinion of these scholars simply shows how incompetent they are in their hadith gradings. Ali bin Al-Hakam is a very late narrator and he did not narrator from the second century Imams. Isma’eel, on the other hand, died during the times of Ja’afar Al-Sadiq. The chain is easily disconnected but it is no surprise that Shia scholars did not notice this.

Ibn Al-Ja’abi then brought two more narrations about Kisa/Tatheer, but both narrations were weak. This is pretty obvious since he refrained from attempting to prove the authenticity of these chains. Furthermore, as usual, both narrations have anonymous narrators:

Narrations from Al-Khisal by Shaykh Al-Saduq:
 
First Narration:
 
أبي رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن الحسن المؤدب، عن أحمد ابن علي الاصبهاني، عن إبراهيم بن محمد الثقفي قال: أخبرنا مخول بن إبراهيم قال: حدثنا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني، عن عمار بن معاوية الدهني، عن عمرة بنت أفعي قالت: سمعت ام سلمة رضي الله عنها تقول: نزلت هذه الآية في بيتي ” إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا ” قالت: وفي البيت سبعة رسول الله وجبرئيل وميكائيل وعلي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين صلوات الله عليهم، قالت: وأنا على الباب فقلت: يارسول الله ألست من أهل البيت؟ قال: إنك من أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وآله. وما قال: إنك من أهل البيت
 
My Father (ra) he said: Abdullah ibn Al-Hasan Al-Mu’addab narrated to us, from Ahmad ibn Ali Al-Asbahani, from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad Al-Thaqafi, he said: Makhul ibn Ibrahim informed us, he said: Abdul-Jabbar ibn Al-Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Ammar ibn Mu’awiyya Al-Dahni, from Amrah bint Af’i, she said: I heard Umm Salamah (ra) say: “This verse was revealed in my house: ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification. (33:33)'” She said: “And in the house were seven, The Messenger of Allah, and Jibra’il, and Mika’il, and Ali, and Fatima, and Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussain (sa).” She said: “And I was at the door. So I said: ‘Oh Messenger of Allah, am I not from the People of Your House?’ He said: ‘Verily you are from the Women of the Prophet (saww).’ And he never said ‘You are from the People of my House.'”
 
Kitab Al-Khisal volume 2 page 439-40
 
Notes:
 
An interesting point in this narration is that it’s mentioned that 7 were present when this verse was revealed, whereas usually it’s only 5 or 6 (in the addition of Jibra’il), even Shaykh Saduq (ra) notes this when he says regarding this Hadith:
 
قال مصنف هذا الكتاب رضي الله عنه: هذا حديث غريب لا أعرفه إلا بهذا الطريق والمعروف أن أهل البيت الذين نزلت فيهم آية التطهير خمسة وسادسهم جبرئيل عليه السلام
 
The Compiler of this book (ra) said: “This narration is estranged, I do not know it except by this transmittion, and it is known that the People of the House for whom this verse of purification was revealed regarding were five, and the sixth from them was Jibra’il (as)
 
Second Narration:
 
This next narration is extremely long so I will post and translate the chain and the part which is necessary.
 
حدثنا أبي، ومحمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي الله عنهما قالا: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، عن الحكم بن – مسكين الثقفي، عن أبي الجارود وهشام أبي ساسان، وأبي طارق السراج، عن عامر بن واثلة قال: كنت في البيت يوم الشورى فسمعت عليا عليه السلام وهو يقول:…..نشدتكم بالله هل فيكم أحد أنزل الله فيه آية التطهير على رسوله صلى الله عليه وآله ” إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا ” فأخذ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله كساء خيبريا فضمني فيه وفاطمة عليها السلام والحسن والحسين ثم قال: ” يا رب هؤلاء أهل بيتي فأذهب عنهم الرجس وطهرهم تطهيرا “؟ قالوا: اللهم لا
 
My Father, and Muhammad ibn Al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn Al-Waleed (ra) narrated to us, they said: Sa’d ibn Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Muhammad ibn Al-Hussain ibn Abi Al-Khattab narrated to us: From Al-Hakam ibn Maskeen Al-Thaqafi, from Abi Al-Jaarood and Hisham ibn Abi Sasan, from Abi Tariq Al-Siraj, from Amir ibn Wathila, he said: I was in the house on the day of the Shura, and I heard Ali (as) and he was saying: “…..I implore you by Allah, is there one among you, for who Allah revealed the verse of purification upon the Messenger of Allah (saww): ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification. (33:33)’ So the Messenger of Allah (saww) took the cloak of khaybar, and pushed me into it, and Fatima (as) and Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain, then he said: ‘Oh Lord, these are the People of my House, so remove from them uncleanliness, and purify them through a purification.’?” They said: “Allahuma, no.”
 
Al-Khisal volume 2 page 612
 
Notes:

This is the day of the Shura, after the death of Umar ibn Al-Khattab.

Update:

The Shia quoted another narration:

I apologize for updating this so long as I’m preoccupied with other things as well, however Insha’Allah I plan on updating my research more this week. I also wanted to add in a narration I skipped over when I was doing Al-Khisal:
 حدثنا أحمد بن الحسن القطان، ومحمد بن أحمد السناني، وعلي بن – موسى الدقاق، والحسين بن إبراهيم بن أحمد بن هشام المكتب ، وعلي بن عبد الله الوراق رضي الله عنهم قالوا: حدثنا أبو العباس أحمد بن يحيى بن زكريا القطان قال: حدثنا بكر بن عبد الله بن حبيب قال: حدثنا تميم بن بهلول: قال: حدثنا سليمان بن حكيم، عن ثور بن يزيد، عن مكحول قال: قال أمير المؤمنين علي بن – أبي طالب عليه السلام:……وأما السبعون فإن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نام ونومني وزوجتي فاطمة وابني الحسن والحسين وألقى علينا عباءة قطوانية فأنزل الله تبارك وتعالى فينا ” إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا ” وقال جبرئيل عليه السلام: أنا منكم يا محمد، فكان سادسنا جبرئيل عليه السلام
Ahmad ibn Al-Hasan Al-Qattan narrated to us, and Muhammad ibn Ahmad Al-Sinani, and Ahmad Al-Sinani, and Ali ibn Musa Al-Daqqaq, and Al-Hussain ibn Ibrahim ibn Ahmad ibn Hisham Al-Mukattab, and Ali ibn Abdullah Al-Warraq (may Allah be pleased with them), they said: Abu Al-Abbas Ahmad ibn Yahya ibn Zakariyya Al-Qattan narrated to us, he said: Bakr ibn Abdullah ibn Habeeb narrated to us, he said: Tamim ibn Bahlool narrated to us, he said: Sulayman ibn Hakeem narrated to us, from Thawr ibn Yazid, from Makhool, he said: Amir Al-Mu’minin Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) said: “…..And as for the seventieth, verily The Messenger of Allah (saww) lay down, and he made me lay down, and my wife Fatima, and ym sons Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain, and threw upon us a Qatwani cloak, and Allah (tabarak wa ta’ali) revealed regarding us: ‘Allah intends only to remove impurity from you, Oh People of the House, and purify you through a purification. (33:33)’. And Jibra’il (as) said: ‘I am from you, Oh Muhammad.’ So Jibra’il (as) was the sixth of us.”
Al-Khisal volume 2 page 637
Notes: The word “Naama” means “he slept”, and the word “Nawwamani” means “he made me sleep”, but I found it more appropriate to translate them as “He lay down”, and “He made me lay down” in this context.

The narration is weak due to majhool narrators like Tameem bin Bahlool. I am also pretty sure that Thawr bin Yazeed and Makhool are not thiqaat since they are not Shia narrators in the first place.

Also, Ibn Al-Ja’abi suggested that my weakening of the narrations that he provided are based on my standards. This is false. Every rule that I use to weaken a hadith is based on one that is championed by Shia hadith scholars like Al-Khoei, Al-Subhani, and Al-Mohseni.

Ibn Al-Ja’abi then said:

Insha’Allah when I update my thread next, I will also post my reply to Farid, however, as I’ve said before I don’t engage in tit for tat polemics and won’t make my research thread into a debate one. In addition, before I continue anything else, I’ll ask Farid to read the title of my thread because he seems to misunderstand its purpose, it reads “A Collection Of Hadith Al-Kisa In Shia Books”, not “A Collection Of Mu’tabar Versions Of Hadith Al-Kisa In Shia Books”. I hope it’s understood that when I don’t post the grading of a narration, I’m not claiming that it is Mu’tabar or I haven’t attempted to try to see if it is.

 And just a point to you, clearly Shi’as had access to these narrations in our own books, the question now is do reliable ones exist with us, and the answer is yes.

 Also, a joke is only funny so many times

It seems like Ibn Al-Ja’abi has shifted to a much more lenient approach to collecting the narrations, since his original intention was to collect the authentic narrations on the subject. This is obvious since the very reason he created the thread was to respond to my challenge that these narrations do not exist through authentic chains. I never argued that these didn’t exist at all (through weak chains) in Shia books.

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