Does the belief in Imamah permit the so called “Ghaybah”?


al-Salamu `Aleykum,

Everyone knows the original argument of the early Imami Shia, that the Imam must be available at all times and if there is no Imam the world would crumble and the earth would shake and all that other baseless nonsense.

Now the famous Shia scholar al-Murtada who came after the Ghaybah like all his other companions had to defend the concept stated above, his biggest problem at that point was that THERE WAS NO IMAM, their man was hidden in occultation.

al-Murtada wrote a book on Ghaybah just like his other companions, each of them trying to explain it, each making excuses for it. What caught my eye was one sentence he wrote in his book. He wrote: “Would you accept that the disappearance (Of the Imam) is permitted (In Islam and intellect) ?”

Since he wrote his book to defend their theory of 12 Imams I knew he would say “YES I DO”. In fact that’s what he said right after it:

أنا لذلك مجوز

“I permit it.”

After this he tries to give some excuses as to why he permits it, although in the previous paragraph he himself was saying “We don’t know the true wisdom behind it.”

ANYWAYS

I remembered at that point, the argument of the first early Imami Shia who were so stuck up on having an infallible Imam 24/7. Those early Shia who if they were asked: “Okay you guys claim that the earth needs an infallible Imam the whole time, would it be acceptable if this Imam let’s say was handicapped and couldn’t do his job? or he took a vacation without telling anyone and disappeared for a couple of months?”

These early Imami scholars who were the heavyweights of the Mahdab during their time would have surely said:

“NO WAY! The Imam needs to be always present! Who then will guide the people and correct the innovations and explain the Qur’an!? The intellect does not allow this!!! If the Imam is gone then Allah would not be a just God! The presence of the Imam is out of grace and Lutf so how can he disappear!? The earth will tremble and mountains will fall bla bla…”

Then I remembered, it was these same early scholars who invented the Madhab in the first place, they fabricated these narrations and made up the entire story to begin with!!! So maybe they declared in their narrations that the Imam must NEVER be allowed to disappear, which in turn destroys the dumber theory of Ghaybah?

I opened my Kafi and I knew that my best bet would be those comical chapters about the earth shattering without the presence of an Imam.

I found two chapters related to this each having 7 to 10 narrations, but unfortunately all of them were weak except 2 or 3, even these are mainly Hasan and Hasan Muwathaq and one is Sahih… anyway, here you go, these are authentic narrations from al-Kafi:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ مَنْصُورِ بْنِ يُونُسَ وَ سَعْدَانَ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ عَنْ إِسْحَاقَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ سَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ إِنَّ الْأَرْضَ لَا تَخْلُو إِلَّا وَ فِيهَا إِمَامٌ كَيْمَا إِنْ زَادَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ شَيْئاً رَدَّهُمْ وَ إِنْ نَقَصُوا شَيْئاً أَتَمَّهُ لَهُمْ

[…from Ishaq bin `Ammar from abi `Abdillah (as): I heard him say: “The earth will not be without an Imam, so that he may correct the believers if they add (to the religion) and if they miss something he would complete it for them.]

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الْعَطَّارُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ دَاوُدَ الرَّقِّيِّ عَنِ الْعَبْدِ الصَّالِحِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ الْحُجَّةَ لَا تَقُومُ لِلَّهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ إِلَّا بِإِمَامٍ حَتَّى يُعْرَفَ

[… from Dawud al-Raqqi from al-`Abd al-Salih (as): He said: “The Hujjah of Allah on his creation shall not be established except with an Imam so that he may be known.]

As the reader can see from their older inventions, before the Ghaybah issue messed up their plans, their authentic narrations were stating that THERE MUST BE AN IMAM WHO IS PRESENT AT ALL TIMES, not one who is hidden! Because the hidden one cannot explain the divine arguments of God so that his Hujjah be known nor can he correct the mistakes of the believers, as you can see the reason for the need of an Imam at ALL TIMES is to fulfill these purposes. However, the concept of having a hidden one contradicts this, so the intellect rejects the occultation as well as the texts, and since their entire charade is built on their weak “intellect” then it all falls apart once more.

By Hani
Posted by 13S2010

14 Comments

Filed under Articles, Revealing Shia sect, Shiite's sahih hadith

14 responses to “Does the belief in Imamah permit the so called “Ghaybah”?

  1. Mussadique Ladak

    How stupid and totally foolish your statements are and without any bases as one reads through. Thus us the reason that you people are so misguided and so far away from intellectual understanding.
    The Imam is in Occultation and as stated by the Holy Prophet in numerous traditions. He assists tge people thru his network and also is in contact with the marajas and people of exceptional faith.
    You would not understand as your 4 books are so far from the teachings of the Holy Ahlulbayt that you have no means to ponder upon the proper traditions that are present in your other books.
    So tell me where do you get your inspirations and guidance from?
    The Saudi Wahabiya who only get theur guidance from their champaign bottles?
    Do us a favour!
    You go follow your open Zionist Jews directed Wahabis Imams.
    We will follow our hidden Iman.
    End of debate.

    • Sha

      “We will follow our hidden Iman.”

      I think you meant imam…anyway you didn’t touch on anything but instead went all emotional… The whole point of an imam was so he could guide you…where is he and how does he guide you….

  2. SuperTruthonly

    Talking so big is a deceptive art in journalism that makes something trivial and illogical appear big and very important and almost logical. Those who can see through can punch the hole through the deception. This attack on Imamah is one such deception.

    Does it sound believable that Great Shia Ulemah could not answer (are struggling to answer) – WHILE someone like me with very little knowledge glances at this, and is instantly able to give short, sweet, to the point, reply.

    Those who deceive other are the greatest Ballah upon this ummah of prophet(s)

    SHORT ANSWER
    The answer is simple Why didn’t you ask the question, “What use is the messenger of Allah(swt) who are alive but not present (ghaib or otherwise) among the people?” (I am talking about H. Khizr(a) AND H isa (a)) AND what pains you so much that you are posing the same question on Aiemah(a)”

    Those who are interested in more info – see my next ‘follow up’ post.

    • Majority of scholars don’t believe that Khizr (as) is alive.

      Secondly, comparing your infallible Imam with Isa (as) is wrong and shows how ill-informed you are about Imamah. Isa (as) is not guiding anyone nor is aware of what is happening in the world but the job of your infallible Imam is to guide people after Prophet Muhammad (saw), teach them the religion etc, but He has been missing for over 1200 years and left the Ummah in ‘misguidance’. Thus the theory of Shia Imamah is flawed theory and 1200 year Ghaybah contradicts its purpose.

      • SuperTruthonly

        LOL majority – What majority, Who are they? Any person can make a statement like that. Where is the proof. And did you take the Census of their opinion?

        I think you are talking about sunni ulemah not Shia ulemah. In that case, you statement is unacceptable.

        Also the Ulemah can believe what they like what’s more important is can they prove Khizr(a) is not alive? We will listen to them when they have proof.

        Another example – Qur’an is guidance. Tell me what does coded letters in Qur’an – (i.e. Alif, Laam, Meem) mean, and what use are they if nobody understands. You only have the right to ask what useful purpose is Imam in Ghaibah when you can answer what use is the coded guidance in Qur’an that nobody can understand.

        About you comment about Infallible Imam, I suggest you read Qur’an before you challenge that.

      • I meant Majority of Muslim scholars.

        Don’t give silly examples. You have theory of Imamah. According to Shiism Allah must appoint Imams to guide people, to teach them the religion etc but this theory is flawed because the so called guide (Imam) is missing for over 1200 years. You didn’t read your narrations above.

      • SuperTruthonly

        Silly Examples??? If you cant understand ask – You questioned, ‘what good is an imam in ghaibah (who is supposed to guide people). In the same manner H khizr & H Isa(a) are alive. – so what good is a ghaib (not present) prophet. – You doubt he is alive, stating that some ulemah believe Khizr is not alive. (Though I do not understand the real motive of denying.) Know that, during the times of Musa(a) it was Khizr who became a source of knowledge to Musa(a). At that time he was ghaib from the population and only presented himself to Musa(a).

        Because you had a problem with issue of H. Khizr, I gave you another example i.e. Verses of Qur’an – i.e. ‘ALIF LAAM MEEM’ Such coded letters are in Qur’an. Qur’an is suppose to be guidance – What use is guidance that nobody can understand. NOW IF YOU CANT SEE THROUGH WHAT I HAVE SAID, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.

        Also the Coded letters tell you a lot if you could understand – May be next time I will explain.

        Actually there a reason for Imam to observe ghaibah like there reason for H Isa to be alive.

        Secondly, – ‘About Allah(swt) appointing Imams’, Read in Qur’an the incident where Ibrahim(a) is made an imam after he succeeded in the test. (Qur’an 2:124). ALLAH(SWT) MADE IBRAHIM(A) AN IMAM – and when Ibrahim asked about MAKING IMAM IN HIS PROGENT – Allah (swt) did not refuse. He(swt) said His covenant will NOT BE WITH THE UNJUST. (note – Imam has to be infallible – not unjust). Even a minute sin (disobedience) is considered injustice on ones souls, for which one has to beg for forgiveness.

        Quran says: (Remember) the day when WE WILL CALL PEOPLE WITH THEIR IMAMS; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a with unjustly. (Al-Isra, Ch 17, Verse 71) – Explain this. – Who is the Imam of our times with whom we shall be raised on the day of Judgement?

        Qur’an is very deep and beautiful, If you leave you bias thinking and read to understand the depth of its meanings. Its very beautiful and very deep.

        You even look at Prophet(s) as a mere Human. You cannot tell the difference even when Allah has made it so obvious, all because of your biased thinking. (I’ll explain if you ask)

        Tell me – Did prophet(s) sin OR was he infallible? So what do you think? Is it difficult for Allah to make infallible Imams? You have seen the life of Ali(a). At the very young age – at dawah-zul-aseera ( when Prophet(s) announced his prophet hood), Ali(a) stood up thrice to volunteer support to prophet(s). At that time Prophet(s) declared him as a brother, successor etc. In Mecca it was young Ali(a) who acted as body guard for prophet(s). He(a) broke the nose of those who threw stones at Prophet(s). In every battle Ali(a) had been a decisive factor for victory. 1) In Khaiber Allah granted victory only at the hands of Ali – Remember the miracle – Ali tore down the door of Khaiber with one hand – the door that took 70 people to open. 2) in Ohad all the companions left prophet(s) at the mercy of enemies and ran to save their lives – It was Ali(a) who protected Prophet(s) and turn the tables and brought victory to Islam. 3) In Khandaq – No muslims (sahabah Rasool) had guts to confront Amr ibn Abd Wad. It was Ali who confronted Amr and destroyed the Enemy. Prophet(s) has praised Ali(a) in a manner he(s) never praised any other companion – Prophet(s) said, 1) “Ali is with Haq and Haq is with Ali”. 2) “I am the city of Knowledge and Ali is its gate” 3) “Ali your status to me is that of Aaron to Musa, except that there is no prophet after me”. 4) “I am the maulah of who so ever Ali is the Maulah” — You find a LOT of this in the books of Hadith.

        Is there anything here, you do not understand?

      • Read the narrations we have posted. Your narrations contradict the theory of Imamah and Ghaibah. The quoted narrations say Imam must be present and visible but this is not the case with your 12th Imam who has left you in misguidance for 1200 years.

        Your examples are silly because you are comparing the wrong people. Your so called Imam is supposed to be heard, present to be followed otherwise he can’t be called a leader, he is supposed to teach the people the religion etc. You can’t compare with Isa (as) because it is a totally different issue. Isa (as) is not guiding people and he isn’t even aware of what is happening in the world nor he was appointed as a guide and Imam after Prophet (saw).

        Note: Next time your long posts will not be approved

      • SupertruthOnly

        Actually ypou refuse to understand – What i posted is very clear. Your challenge is to guidance that does not do what its meant to do. Quran is guidance but Alif Laam Meem does not guide you – Right.

        Keep an open mind and think deeply.
        Lyt me complete me answer to you – Try to understand Ghaibah. What it is actually.

        1) Muslims rejected the Khilifat of Ali declared at Ghadeer khumm and elected their own leaders.
        2) After three khalifs they came to Ali and forced khilafat into his hands only disobey him and to rebel against him – We have battle of Jamal and shifeen. In the end the kharji killed him in the mosque of kufa.
        3) Hassan had to abdicate power to prevent massacre AND because the people were not faithful to the cause. Hassan also died as result of Poison.
        4) Husain ibn Ali and the household of prophet (s) was massacred in Kerballah.
        5) there after all the aiemah from Ali ibn Husain(zainul Abedeen) to Hassan ibn Ali(Al Askari) remained alof of Khilafat and only continued to guide people to Qur’an and guidance of Allah(swt) – All trhese aiemah were imprisoned and finally poisoned.
        6) Since Muslims (like bani Israel) refused to acknowledged the guides and administrators of Allah(s), Allah ordered his last administrator (Mahdi) to remove himself from the lives of Muslimeem. This is in a bid to teach us that rejecting the guidance of Allah will result in deviation, pain, humiliation and loss of liife. We will suffer what Bani Israel suffered – TODAY ALL THIS IS PROVING TRUE – MUSLIMS ARE HUMILIATION TO ISLAM IN EVERY WAY.
        7) Mahdi is ghaib but he is in control and he does guide the ummah when he is most needed, but he does not reveal his identity. When we will have destroyed our selves and suffering utter chaos and humiliation, We will call Mahdi to come and take the affairs in his hands just like people did with Ali(a)

        Finally – Saudi crime in Islamic nations (PAK, Libya, Yemen, Egypt, Bahrain and finally Syria) tells us a lot of what Muslims (centre of Islam) have become. ESP the Saudi (Wahabi/Salafi) fitna (massacre and barbaric acts) in Syria AND Israeli sponsored designs IS THE FINAL CRIME and last evil chapter. Soon Syria will be destroyed followed by Allahs Azaab upin Shaam (where some 100,000 will be killed as a result of natural disaster (Azaab of |Allah)). Thereafter from the country side a sufyani shall take the seat of power – He will massacre people. There will be great destruction and chaos and people tired of attrocities and calling for Mahdi., When you hear his name, one year and one month later you will see destruction of Masjid un Nabi, and Mahdi appearing in Kaabah to take control. There after we shall see the destruction of Israel and the sentence executed against Zionist Jews.

      • You have problem with reading?

        I am saying your narrations are in direct conflict with your theory of Ghaybah. Your narrations say Imam Must be always be present so that they correct the believers. But your so called non-existent guide has been missing for over 1200 years. This contradicts with the core of Shia concept of Imamah. You failed to grasp it and you are giving silly examples that have nothing to do with it.

        Let me quote you some more narrations to help you understand:

        «قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: من مات وليس عليه إمام حي ظاهر مات ميتة جاهلية»

        (بحارالانوار مجلسی ج23 ص 93 _ بیروت و مفید در الاختصاص ص269 _ بیروت)

        Abu Abdilllah (as) said: One who dies without (recognizing) the present and Zahir (visible and can be seen) Imam, dies the death of ignorance.

        – al-Mufid in Al-ekhtisas p269 Beirut
        – Bihar al-Anwar v23 p93 Beirut

        «عن أبي الجارود قال: سمعت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام يقول: من مات وليس عليه إمام حي ظاهر مات ميتة جاهلية، قال: قلت: إمام حي جعلت فداك ؟ قال: إمام حي، إمام حي»

        (بحارالانوار ج23 ص93 و مفید در الاختصاص ص269 و مستدرک وسائل و..)

        Abu Abdillah (as) said: One who dies without having the present and Zahir (visible and can be seen) Imam dies the death of ignorance. The narrator asked: May I be sacrificed for you, the living Imam? He replied: the living Imam, the living Imam.

        – al-Mufid in al-ekhtisas p269
        – Bihar al-Anwar v23 p93
        – Mustadrak Wasail

      • SupertruthOnly

        – First it is not a theory its facts.
        – Secondly, We do not claim Imam should be present – Imam Ali was in Kufa while his representative Malik Aster was in Misr. Effectively, for people of Egypt, Medina and the rest of the world,Imam Ali can be considered absent. You need to talk to him you need to travel to Kufa. In the same way If Imam Mahdi is walking amongst the people and de does not revealing His I.D. (as per what Allah(swt) ordered him). that makes him ghaib (not present) before the people. That does not stop him from guiding the ummah when he deems necessary.
        – Thirdly, lets talk about yiour three khalifs – What ilm did they impart to you? What Islam have you learned from them? Seeing that they were in power and allowed free reign, could they even ex[plain any islamic injunctions or explain the secrets of Quran like ‘Alif laam meem’? On the contrary theb openly declared their Ignorance WHILE Imam Ali(a) called on people, to ask what they wish to know. He said he knew the paths of the heaven more than the paths of earth. YET all the stopid arabs could only ask questions like was ‘How many hair do I have on my head’.
        – Fourthly, You talk about, ‘One who dies without (recognizing) the present and Zahir Imam, dies the death of ignorance.’ THAT IS ABSOLUTELY. We know all about our Imams. And about Imam Mahdi we know all that has been revealed to us and we need to know. He is son of Hassan al Askari(a) His mother is Nerjis daughter of Roman emperor from the family of H Isa (a). We know why he is ghaib, what shall transpire in his absence and roughly when he will show advent. We follow the instructions he left us (i.e. Follow the most learned in religion). Like Khizr appeared to Hadret Musa(a) from ghaibah. Madhi guides the Ulemah where and when nessary. Rest of the Islamic knowledge we know from the preceding Imams – SO WHAT IS THERE THAT WE DO NOT KNOW. I am sure you do not know much about you khalifs that we know? like the actual genealogy of Umar etc.

        Don’t debate to refute and deny what I post – Debate with logics and reasoning.

      • You have no idea what you are talking. Your narrations and your classical scholars say that “Imam must be present”.
        You give silly example that Ali had a representative in Misr. ALi was living, KNOWN, VISIBLE Imam not non-existent like your 12th Imam. If he wasn’t present how could he have made someone his representative? You said “if you need to talk to Ali you go to Kufa” This is what I have been telling you that you don’t understand. Your 12th Imam, the so called guide, doesn’t exists and is not PRESENT,VISIBLE so that people can go to him. You see how are you are refuting yourself.

  3. SuperTruthonly

    I do not understand – if this is an open discussion/debate, why, posts should be subject to control by moderator, . It is obvious that even if I am 100% on the truth, and I say something that disproves the faith of those who control this site, they will not allow me to post – – This site is not a FREE DISCUSSION.

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