Daily Archives: November 8, 2010

Abu Talib a disbeliever

Many shia’s claim from sunni sources that Abu Talib was a firm believer. He recited kalima on his death bed etc. etc.

So lets see what is the truth according to sunni hadith science.

First of all let me quote you sahih hadith:

1. Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 442; Al-Janaa’iz

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:

When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah’s Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah’s Apostle said to Abu Talib, “O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, “O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?” Allah’s Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’) while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah. (Then Allah’s Apostle said, “I will keep on asking Allah’s forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so.” So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113).

2. Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 413; Kitab Al-Iman

Ibn ‘Abbas reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain.

& more sahih ahadith with almost same conclusion…

{If any weak report contradicts this sahih hadith of bukhari then that weak hadith should be rejected}

Now lets start what shia try to compose from other sunni sources but half-quoting  skipping what sunni ulema said:

Abu Talib Recited Kalima At His Death Bed, Al-bayhaqi Also Declares:

& Ibn Ishaq says
that while dying Abu Talib’s lips were in motion. al-Abbas who was

till then a nonbeliever, put his ear to his lips and then said to the

Prophet that he was reciting the KALIMA the Prophet had wanted of him.

Ibn Hisham, Cairo Edition, p 146

Reply: That hadith contains a narrator from the family of Abbas bin Abdullah who is unknown.

After narrating that hadith, Bayhaqi said that the hadith is munqati’ (disconnected). Then he said Abbas (ra) was not muslim at that time. Then he said the proven hadith is that which states that ABu Talib is in hell, (narrated by Abdullah bin Harith from Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib (ra) ).

All these said by Bayhaqi in the same page posted above.

This verse was not revealed for Abu Talib. How can this be established?

1:-The chapter speaks of the events that took place during the campaign of Tabuk, which was during the month of Rajab in the ninth Year. The Prophet ( saw ) had ordered Abu Bakr to announce first part of it during the days of the pilgrimage of that year when he sent him as an ‘ Amir Al Hajj ‘. Then he sent Imam Ali to take that part from him and announce it, because God commanded him that no one should deliver the revelation other than himself or a man from the members of his House. The chapter speaks of the events that took place during the campaign of Tabouk, which was during the month of Rajab in the ninth Year.

The Messenger of Allah sendAbu Bakr to the people of Mecca with the Chapter of al-Bara’ah and when he proceeded, (the Prophet) sent for him and asked him to return the chapter and said: “No one takes it to them except one of my Ahlul-Bayt.” and thus he sent Ali for this mission.”

Sunni references:

– Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p183, v5, pp 275,283
– Musnad of Ahmed Hanbal, v1 pp 3,151, v3, pp 212,283
– Fadha’l al-Sahabah, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p562, Tradition #946
– Hakim in his Mustadrak, v 3 p 51
– Al Nisai in his Khasais al Awliyah, p 20
– Fadhail al Khamsah, v 2 p 343
– Siratun Nabi by Shibli Numani, v 2 p 239

Reply: Well its actually very simple. Not all of Surah Bara’ah revealed at once. It was revealed at different times. And this is the case with most of the surah. And many a times a verse revealed on two different occassions. And many a time a verse would revealed but only few peolple come to know about it. But later on when Prophet (pbuh) recite it in public then people took it to mean that this was the occassion of its revelation. All these possibilities are well known and given in the books of Science of Quran. The author of the article must be decieving.

Then Shibli Numani further writes

But from a traditionist’s point of view this report of Al Bukhari is
not worthy taking as reliable because the last narrator is Musaiyyab
who embraced Islam after the fall of Mecca, and was not himself
present at the time of Abu Talib’s death. It is on this account that
al Aini in his commentary has remarked that this tradition is MURSAL
(Al Aini, Chapter Janaiz or Funeral, VOL IV, p 200 ).

Reply: This is incorrect analogy, because maraseel of Sahaba is Hujjah accoring to Ahlus Sunnah.
Also, Musayyib was from Banu Makhzum, and the chiefs of the Quraish who were present with Abu Jahl were also from Banu Makhzum. So it might be that he was one of them. Abu Jahl died as Kaffir but Musayyib accepted islam later on. Mussayyib accepting Islam later on doesn’t mean he could not have heard it when he was not a muslim. He was present with Abu Jahl at that time. Later on when he accepted islam, he informed about it. This is what Ibn Hajar said in Fath Al-Bari.

As for the saying of Al-Ayni that this is mursal, Ibn Hajar said its not correct and explain further…
وأما قول بعض الشراح: هذا الحديث من مراسيل الصحابة فمردود، لأنه استدل بأن المسيب على قول مصعب من مسلمة الفتح، وعلى قول العسكري ممن بايع تحت الشجرة، قال: فأيا ما كان فلم يشهد وفاة أبي طالب لأنه توفي هو وخديجة في أيام متقاربة في عام واحد، والنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يومئذ نحو الخمسين انتهى. ووجه الرد أنه لا يلزم من كون المسيب تأخر إسلامه أن لا يشهد وفاة أبي طالب كما شهدها عبد الله بن أبي أمية وهو يومئذ كافر ثم أسلم بعد ذلك، وعجب من هذا القائل كيف يعزو كون المسيب كان ممن بايع تحت الشجرة إلى العسكري ويغفل عن كون ذلك ثابتا في هذا الصحيح الذي شرحه كما مر في المغازي واضحا

Abu Talib made great sacrifices for the Prophet none can deny that. He
would even sacrifice his own children for his sake. For his sake he
had exposed himself to the odium of the whole country, and for his
sake he had passed years in state of siege, suffering starvation as an
exile, unprovided with food or drink. Will all this love, sacrifice
and devotion go unrewarded ?

Reply: Well this argument can be applied to tons of people. However, all these sacrifices will benefit Abu Talib, and that is considered exception only for Abu Talib…

It is reported on the authority of ‘Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib that he said: Messenger of Allah, have you benefited Abu Talib in any way for he defended you and was fervent in your defence? The Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) said: Yes; he would be in the most shallow part of the Fire: and but for me he would have been in the lowest part of Hell. (Book #001, Hadith #0408)

Abdullah b. al-Harith reported: I heard Abbas say: I said: Messenger of Allah, verily Abu Talib defended you and helped you; would it be beneficial for him? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes; I found him in the lowest part of the Fire and I brought him to the shallow part. (Book #001, Hadith #0409)

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported: A mention was made of his uncle Abu Talib before the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) He said: My intercession may benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and he may be placed in the shallow part of the Fire which would reach his ankles and his brain would be boiling. (Book #001, Hadith #0411)

Ibn ‘Abbas reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain. (Book #001, Hadith #0413)

– asking God to forgive a deceased usually takes place at the time of the
funeral prayer. The wording of the verse ‘ It is not permissible to the
Prophet and the believers to ask God to forgive the pagans ‘ , indicates
that the Prophet was with other believers ( in a congregational prayer )
when he asked forgiveness for the pagans.

– as a matter of fact, the funeral prayer was not instituted before the
Hijrah (migration to Medina). The first prayer offered by the Messenger for
a deceased was his prayer for Al Bura Ibn Maarour.

it is likely that this verse was revealed after the Prophet offered a
funeral prayer for one of the hypocrites who used to pretend Islam and
conceal paganism. It is very likely that the verse was revealed when the
Holy Prophet ( saw ) offered a funeral prayer for Abdullah bin Obai bin
Salool who died during the ninth year and who was well noted in his
hypocrisy, his hatred towards the Messenger of Allah and his adversary to
the faith of Islam. About him and his followers, the Chapter of Al
Munafiqoon ( the Hypoctites ) was revealed before that time. Had historians
and hadith recorders thought with some depth and logic, they would not have
commited this terrible historical error

– asking God to forgive a deceased usually takes place at the time of the
funeral prayer. The wording of the verse ‘ It is not permissible to the
Prophet and the believers to ask God to forgive the pagans ‘ , indicates
that the Prophet was with other believers ( in a congregational prayer )
when he asked forgiveness for the pagans.

Reply: This is an amazing analogy and the whole argument is based on this analogy that bcause Quran command for Prophet and believers not do Istighfar for Kafir, then it means they must be praying funeral prayer. Wow.. It means Prophet and Believer couldn’t do Istighfar alone.
Whole agument is based on this analogy, hence no need to reply it further.
By the way Prophet [s] also prayed for Najashi in Mecca.

But where is the fault in the Hadeeths? The verse cited from Surah Qasas,
was revealed at least ten (10) years before Surah Baarat, and that it was
revealed in Mecca, where as Surah Baarat was revealed in Medina. Please
think about it, and you shall find out that in a futile effort to discredit
Abu Talib and declare him as an unbeliever, the order of the revelation of
the Quran was not taken into consideration. Just imagine the time gap in
between the revelation of the two chapters, and the matter will be very

Reply: How amazing the order of the revelation (which verse revealed at which time) are known through these type of Hadith. It is not written in the Mushaf that this verse was revealed at this date and this at that, it is these type of hadith and meaning of the verse which give us the idea about the time of revelation of a particular narration.
SO, Hadith of Musayyib and other indicates that 28:56 and 9:113 revealed at some specific time as in hadith.

Also history tells us that Al Musaiyab

– disliked Imam Ali
– refused to say the funeral prayers for the grandson of Imam Ali,
and the son of Imam Hussain, Imam Zainul Abidin

Sunni Reference

– Sharah of Ibn al Hadid, v 1 p 370

One could conclude that this fabrication was done to simply elevate Umayad
over Hashimites.

Reply: From when Ibn Abil Hadid became “Sunni”????

Also I came across a very ashtonishing commentary, by the most reverred
Sunni commentator, Fakr ar Din Al Razi in his Tafseer, with reference to
Surah Qasas (28:56). He has mentioned this verse about Abu Talib, * not *
because of his personal opinion; because of the opinion of some other
scholars ‘. Surprisingly, he admits, that this verse could not be
associated with Abu Talib’s beliefs …

Reference: Tafseer Kabir, v 25 p 3 ( Fakhr ar Din al Razi )

Reply: This is how these self-declared scholars misguide unlearned people. This is what Ar-Razi said..

هذه الآية لا دلالة في ظاهرها على كفر أبي طالب
In apparent of this verse there is no proof for the disbelief of Abu Talib”

He is just saying one cannot prove kufr of Abu Talib just by looking at the verse. It is obvious as the verse 28:56 doesn’t mention anything about kufr or shirk unlike 9:113. But by looking at other factors there remains no doubt, and that is why just after this statement Razi mention the conclusion of different factors in the words of a scholar..

قال الزجاج : أجمع المسلمون على أنها نزلت في أبي طالب وذلك أن أبا طالب قال عند موته يا معشر بني عبد مناف أطيعوا محمداً وصدقوه تفلحوا وترشدوا ، فقال عليه السلام « يا عم تأمرهم بالنصح لأنفسهم وتدعها لنفسك! قال فما تريد يا ابن أخي؟ قال أريد منك كلمة واحدة ، فإنك في آخر يوم من أيام الدنيا أن تقول لا إله إلا الله ، أشهد لك بها عند الله تعالى ، قال يا أخي قد علمت أنك صادق ولكني أكره أن يقال جزع عند الموت ولولا أن يكون عليك وعلى بني إبيك غضاضة ومسبة بعدي لقلتها ولأقررت بها عينك عند الفراق لما أرى من شدة وجدك ونصحك ، ولكني سوف أموت على ملة الأشياخ عبد المطلب وهاشم وعبد مناف »

“Az-Zujaj said: “Muslims are agreed upon that this verse was revealed regarding Abu Talib….(then he mention the story of death of Abu Talib)”.”

Even if Abu Talib (as) said that, “I am on the religion of Abdul-Muttalib”, the question is whose religion was Abdul-Muttalib following?

There is no doubt that Abdul-Muttalib (as) followed the religion of Ibrahim (as) and the biggest testimony is the event of the elephants, which Abraha had brought to destroy the Ka’bah. Abdul-Muttalib (as) prayed to Allah (SWT) to protect the Holy Ka’bah from being destroyed and when he (as) confronted Abraha – he (as) simply asked him to release his livestock. Abraha was shocked. He said, “You are the chief of this tribe and I expected you to plead to me NOT to destroy the Ka’bah”. Abdul-Muttalib (as) said, “I am the owner of these animals and have therefore come to ask for them. As for the Ka’bah, its Master is there to protect it”. So if Abu Talib had said that he (as) followed the religion of

Abdul-Muttalib (as) – how can he (as) become a pagan?

Reply: Abu Jahl and chiefs of mecca were well aware of the religion of Abdul Muttalib when they were telling Abu Talib to not leave the religion of Abdul-Muttalib. Prophet (pbuh) was well aware of the religion of Abdul-Muttalib when he, instead of saying “ok, stick to hanif faith of Abdul-Muttalib”, was requeting Abu Talib to accept Islam.
Besides, pagans of mecca also used to believe in one supreme God, but they had associated small gods with Him as partner. Try to read Surah An’am to know about the faith of pagans of mecca.

And Don’t Forget That:-

Abu Talib recited the nikah of Prophet(s) .Abu Talib addresses the men of Quraysh, who were present at the marriage ceremony as follows:

Praise be to Allah Who made us from the seed of Abraham and progeny of
Ishmael. He granted as a Sacred house and a place of pilgrimage. He
made us to dwell in a secure sanctuary (haram), to which the fruits of
everything are brought. He made us, moreover, arbiters in men’s
affairs, and blessed for us this land in which we dwell.
Then he said:

Were Muhammad (pbuh&HF), the son of my brother ‘Abdullah son of Abdul
Muttalib ‘, to be weighed any man among the Arabs, he would excel him.
Nor would any man be comparable to him. He is peerless among men, even
though he is a man of little welath. Yet riches are only transient
possesions, and an epheramel security. He has expressed a desire for
Khadijah, and she likewise has shown interest in him. As for any bride
gift (mahr) you demand, both the part to be presented now and the one
presented at a later date – it will be of my own wealth.
– Seerah al-Halabiyyah, vol 1 p 139

Reply: Al-Halabi qoute it from “Abul Husain Al-Faris and other”. He said in “Seerah” under the title of “marriage of Khadija bint Khuwilad ibn Asad ibn Abdul ‘Uzza ibn Qussi“,

وذكر أبو الحسين بن فارس وغيره أن أبا طالب خطب يومئذ فقال: الحمد لله الذي جعلنا من ذرية إبراهيم، وزرع إسماعيل، وضئضيء معدّ: أي معدنه، وعنصر مضر: أي أصله، وجعلنا حضنة بيته: أي المتكفلين بشأنه، وسوّاس حرمه: أي القائمين بخدمته، وجعله لنا بيتا محجوجا، وحرما آمنا، وجعلنا حكام الناس. ثم إن ابن أخي هذا محمد بن عبد الله لا يوزن به رجل إلا رجح به شرفا ونبلا وفضلا وعقلا، وإن كان في المال قلّ، فإن المال ظل زائل، وأمر حائل، وعارية مسترجعة، وهو والله بعد هذا له نبأ عظيم، وخطر جليل، وقد خطب إليكم رغبة في كريمتكم خديجة، وقد بذل لها من الصداق ما عاجله وآجله اثنتي عشرة أوقية ونشا: أي وهو عشرون درهما والأوقية: أربعون درهما، أي وكانت الأواقي والنش من ذهب كما قال المحب الطبري: أي فيكون جملة الصداق خمسمائة درهم شرعي. وقيل أصدقها عشرين بكرة، أي كما تقدم

Now either its proven or not it doesn’t matter, because reciting Khutbah of Nikah is not from the pillars of the Nikah. Even according to Shia it is not a condition for the Marriage to be Valid. Let me go in some details.

I am qouting below from famous shia site http://www.al-islam.org from a book “Temporary Marriage in Islamic Law” by Sachiko Murata.
Following is mention…

I. The Pillars Of The Marriage Contract
Marriage has a set number of pillars, two according to the Shi’is, three according to the Malikis and Hanafis, and four according to the Hanbalis and Shafi’is. All schools agree on the first two pillars, ‘formula’ and ‘persons’.

Lets see what are these pillars. Qouting from the book…

A. The Formula (sigha)
Marriage is legalized by a contract (‘aqd), which, like all other contracts in Islam, consists of a declaration (ijab) and an acceptance (qabul). The woman declares that she is entering into a relationship of marriage with the man, and he accepts her as his wife.

B. The Persons (mahall)
The man and woman must be free of all shar’i hindrances to their marriage, as explained below. The identity of the spouses must be clearly specified.

C. Guardianship (wilaya)
The legal guardian in the marriage contract may be the father, the father’s father (Hanafi, Shafi’i, Shi’i), the executor of the father’s will concerning the marriage (wasi), the governor of the town (hakim) in case of the nonexistence of the others (Hanbali), and the owner of a slave (Maliki)………..In the Shi’i and Hanafi schools the presence of the guardian is required only at the marriage contract of a girl not of age, that is, one who has not yet reached puberty (saghira), or of an incompetent or insane girl or woman of age.

D. Witnesses (Shahid)
The Shafi’i, Hanbali, and Hanafi schools hold that the presence of two witnesses is a pillar of marriage and that without their presence, the contract is invalid. [37]………The Shi’is maintain that the presence of one or more witnesses is not a pillar of the contract, so a man and woman may conclude a contract secretly if they so wish. [39]

I have qouted only necessary part. For detail one can read the book here: http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/

So one can see there is NO condition that Khutba should be even recited, forget about the condition of Khateeb being a Muslim. Nikah is valid even without Khutba as proven above.
Hence in conclusion is fake and has no basis.
The fact Also remains the same that there was no revelation revealed at that time, so how come it became necessary for Nikah to be valid, specially when its not even against morality and fitrah. In fact in shi’ism one can marry even secretly. Where is the Khutba?

What About That Hadith In Bukhari:-
Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 2, Book 17, Number 122:
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Dinar:

My father said, “I heard Ibn ‘Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib: And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet)who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows.” Salim’s father (Ibn ‘Umar) said, “The following poetic verse occurred to my mind while I was looking at the face of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) while he was praying for rain. He did not get down till the rain water flowed profusely from every roof-g utter: And a white (person) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows . . .And these were the words of Abu Talib.

Reply: Is it necessary that one must be a Muslim to love his family, his tribe? Is this the argument?

“Love of the Prophet [pbuh] ” is part of Eeman, NOT that its the ONLY part of Eeman. Love of the Prophet [pbuh] is not only criteria of salvation.

And by qouting the above hadith the argument is this that Allah accepted the prayer of Abu Talib, then I would say its a weak argument again. Lets see…

فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ
65. And when they mount upon the ships they pray to Allah, making their faith pure for Him only, but when He bringeth them safe to land, behold! they ascribe partners (unto Him), [Quran 29:65]

There many verses in Quran similar to this.
So we see that, Allah accaepts Du’a whenever one calls him with pure faith, even a disbeliever. Hence the argument has no scholarly basis.

Let’s Finish This Now:-

Some Nasibis believe that in the beginning the Prophet (saws) was a Kaafir. Then Allah (swt) guided him and made him a Prophet. Allamah Qalbee says, “This verse that you were saved means that he was misguided, the Kaafir people had made him a Kaafir. Then Allah (swt) guided him to the path of Tauheed. Allamah Sudi states that the Prophet (saws) followed the faith of his Kaafir people for forty years”.

Tafsir al Kabir by Fakhradin al Razi, page 424 Volume 8 paragraph 30

Reply: Ar-Razi did not mention “Nasibi”, he used the word “بعض الناس” meaning “some people”. Hence its a false attribution on Fakhruddeen Ar-Razi.
Also, when a person became Muslim then his all the past sins not included in his ‘Amal, and the person becomes pure from the sins like a newly born child. This is something well known in Ahle SUnnah, May be not in Shi’ism as in this case they would have to recheck their belief regarding “Tulaqa” (those who accepted Islam after Fath), and we know according to shi’ism most of them were Munafiq.

Anyways, after mentioning that, Razi said that the view of the Majority of scholars is that the Prophet [pbuh] never did Kufr during his whole life even for a while. He said,
وأما الجمهور من العلماء فقد اتفقوا على أنه عليه السلام ما كفر بالله لحظة واحدة

And this is what we believe. Prophet was on Fitrah before his Prophethood and never did Kufr, as Allah protected him from all types of Kufr.

Abu Talib moved his lips as he was about to die. Abbas then
heard what he uttered, and he said to the Prophet that Abu Talib
had uttered the KALIMA that was required by you.

Tarike Abul Fida, V 1 p 120
Ibn Ishaq says that while dying Abu Talib’s lips were in motion. Abbas
who was an unbeliever till then put his ear to the lips and then said
to the Prophet that he was reciting the KALIMA the Prophet had wanted
of him.-

Ibn Hisham, Cairo Edition, p 146 ( as quoted by Shibli Numani )

By Allah, he has uttered the word which you requested, O Messenger of Allah!.
-Dalail al-Nubuwwah by al-Bayhaqi, vol 2 p 101
– Ibn Hisham, Cairo Edition, p146 as quoted in Siratun Nabi, by Shibli Numani, v1, pp 219-220

Reply: All are same narration repeated in different books and replied earlier.

Also in books, 

it is related that the Prophet (saw) stood at the
funeral of Abu Talib and said:

You have indeed acted kindly to your next of kin;
may you be well rewarded, O uncle

Dalail al-Nubuwwah by al-Bayhaqi, vol 2 p 101
Ibid, vol 2 p 103
History of Khateeb Baghdadi, vol 13 p 196
History of Ibn Katheer, vol 3 p 125
al Isaba, vol 4 p 116
Tadhkirat Sibt, p 2
– History of Yaquubi, vol 2 p26

Reply: Again what is the argument?
Besides, Ibn Hajar after qouting this narration with other narration, which was qouted by a Rafidi to prove Islam of Abu Talib, declared all of them “Wahiyah”..
وأسانيد هذه الأحاديث واهية

Discussed by brother Ahlussunnah


Filed under Clarification about sunni hadiths, Rebuttals